Things were so hopeful. I went door to door in three wards yesterday in our get out the vote and I gotta tell ya, my legs are killing me. I had the option of going to three different election related parties, but choose a quiet night at home with Richelle, with some popcorn and some wine, to take in the results. The early exit polls reported were very positive, but then our appetites disappeared as the states fell one by one. Voters were saying a candidate?s morals and values weighted more importantly than the economy or the war on terror. We stayed up until 3:30 AM, our stomachs twisting and depression mounting.
Pennsylvania did its job. Philadelphia did its job. I feel proud of the reality-based community here. We came out in force and the efforts of MoveOn, ACT, and PA Victory, and so many other groups were impressive. I’m very happy to have been a part of that and to have met so many great folks. I feel very bad for Joe Hoeffel, Tim Kearney, and Ross Schriftman; all three were very deserving of the posts they were pursing, but at least Allyson Schwartz won. I’m looking forward to her serving us in Congress.
So what happened everyplace else? Well Bush and Kerry both reached out to their bases, and the Republican base has more reliable voters than the Democratic one. That?s the bottom line. This enabled Rove to craft a strategy that played just a few notes and played them well. The strategy allowed it to focus and ignore the rest of the country.
There will be those that say the Democrats lost because they didn?t communicate with their base well enough, for example, by nominating Dean, and if they did, they would have won. I don?t think so. The problem is the Democratic base isn?t as simplistic as the Republican one. It?s the big tent. It takes more to reach these folks, to let them know that their votes matter, that they have a candidate that has a chance to succeed. So many are disenfranchised don?t vote in the first place. In short ? they need a Bill Clinton.
Let’s get this clear: many, many more did vote this year. They voted in record numbers, and without them, it would have been a landslide in the G.O.P.’s favor. You have to take heart and know it is something to build on. Saddly, in proportion, Republicans are statistically more likely to vote, and that trend continues with this election. Trends like that can change. Importantly, candidates like Bill Clinton have shown a way to reach across the divide and encourage votes that might not normally happen.
I really like John Kerry. I like his story, I like what he’s done, I like his take on the issues, I like the way he thinks and I like his vision for the future. I felt he would be a great President who would work hard to fix the damage that’s been wrought these past four years. But it’s clear: the country is divided. But it’s not by political party. Don’t fall for that. It is divided by how it decides who to trust.
Did the Internet play a role in this campaign? Yes it did. It provided the tools for Democrats to get close, but in the end it all comes down to election day and turn out. No matter how good your operations are ? if the voters don?t come the polls, you?re not going to win.
Speaking of the polls, there 1754 election related incidents in Ohio and 26,990 incidents reported across America so far. This isn?t over yet. (Update: it is over, Kerry has conceded, even with all these election day incidents unresolved).
The stories and questions of this election:
1. Internet empowered community and campaigning works, but it all comes down to how many vote.
2. Morals, faith, and social issues matter (NYTimes). Get it through your head. You can?t win unless you recognize that a large portion of the country votes based on how they feel about a candidate instead of what they know. This is frustrating, and makes me want to run to Canada.
3. Simplicity in message and candidate matters (Slate). People trust things (people, messages, damn near anything) that seem simple. By and large, more people trusted Bush than Kerry. That’s despite the reality-based reasons they should have felt otherwise.
4. You can extrapolate this and ask yourself, what will become of the right to choose for women, and will gays and lesbians ever share the same spousal rights as the rest of us? Will the government’s increasing encroachment into our private lives grow? Will stem cell research atleast occur off shore? The Supreme Court is going to be changed for a generation and the Republicans still control all three legislative branches of government.
5. Where did the center go?
6. What role did the new voting machines (especially Diebold) play? Will we ever know the real winner?
7. How come the big discrepancy in exit polls vs. actual votes?
8. How did this election compare, numerically, to 2000? Did anything actually change? Bush won the popular vote. Think about it.
9. Bush was elected (yeah I know, shut up will ya) in 2000 without a mandate. He then pursued a radical agenda that divided this country. Will he look at the results and think he is justified to further his ideological aims (NYTimes) even more aggressively?
10. The results appear to be: 57 million to Kerry, 60 million to Bush, and 100 million to “Whatever”. “Whatever” wins again! With minimal campaign effort to boot (bogarted from a Metafilter thread but what the hell).
I am very proud of the those I worked with and look forward to continuing the friendships so many of us have started along the way.
Halliburton is having a good day on the stock market I hear. Oh well.
Karl, people are saying they’ll never vote again because they are sick of the scam which has become our election process every four years. E-Voting machines with no paper trail to verify who voted for who. No paper ballot as a backup. Just like I posted here over a month ago. It really is as easy as point and click to make votes go away.
Do they have a right to be disgusted? You’re fucking right they do.
I hope all the glossy eyed people who voted for this a-hole know that by voting for him, they’re children will soon be drafted to fight the next set of wars he has planned. And in 4 more years (if we haven’t been blown up by then) watch and see if he gives up power. This is a dictatorship now.
I’m seriously considering moving to Canada.
There is no more land of the free when the results are changed by those those have screwing those that have not.
RIP Constitution
Posted by: Neo on November 3, 2004 10:20 AM
I just can’t believe Bush won the popular vote, but I suppose people are afraid of change now, they think we must have some sort of continuity of leadership to keep us safe. It’s really stunning. As for your thoughts on the idea that Republicans are more likely to vote, I am not sure about that. I think the issue here was that the undecided people bought the security arguments that Bush and Cheney put forth.
Posted by: jen_m on November 3, 2004 10:39 AM
Since they are not our enemies, just rivals and it seems we can’t defeat them, should we consider joining them and trying to improve the Republican party from the inside?
As a recent citizen, I’m still learning about our politics. In this learning process I’ve been a supporter of Bush and the Republicans before the whole Iraq and WMD mess.
On the other some others among us may instead want to help the Democrats become more effective and have more Clinton-like leaders. I do suspect Howard Dean would have been a stronger candidate in a national election than Kerry.
Like Bush, it is clear what Dean stands for. Like Bush, Dean is passionate, and comes across as someone we can relate to — someone like us. Kerry, on the other hand, comes across as too much of a politician. Kerry is certainly a better debater, more sophisticated, and more “presidential” than Bush or Dean. However, he isn’t someone the common person relates to. Clinton was strong on both aspects. The democrats need more Clintons.
Either path we choose, we need to work to improve things in our country.
Bush has won. It is time to accept it and move on. While he is President, he needs our support. Which is why I proposed the first option: Join them and improve them.
Posted by: Rajiv on November 3, 2004 10:59 AM
We weren’t beaten, we were robbed. Diebold E-Voting machines leave NO paper ballot and underneath the hood are lines of computer code. Something Karl knows about being a programmer.
Here’s something to chew on while you all try to get the bad taste out of your mouths:
———————–
Here is how easy it is to “make magic” — we need COUNTERS (B) = Bush; (K) = Kerry; (V) = Vote; (T) = Tally
1. If V = B, add 1 to B
2. If T = 8, add 1 to B; Clear T; Skip 3
3. If V = K, add 1 to K; Add 1 to T
1% here, 3% there. It’s just that easy.
Posted by: Neo on November 3, 2004 11:00 AM
Oh and Btw, just in case you are wondering. With a Republican controlled congress. Here’s the next move (now that Kerry is about to give up the race as just reported)
Don’t be surprised when this gets changed just in time for the next election:
22nd amendment. (Term limit of President)
With enough votes this goes bye bye. Think they aren’t setting up for it?
Check this out:
http://thomas.loc.gov/
Bill: H.J.RES.11.IH
Wake up America!
Posted by: Neo on November 3, 2004 11:37 AM
While you’re reading that bill compare it against the other bill with identical language:
HJ 25 IH
Posted by: Neo on November 3, 2004 11:49 AM
I cannot believe it- are these people asleep or just plain uneducated? Who could vote for Bush!
My God – I told my kids it’s Canada or the EU. We moved to America for separation of church and state – Freedom! The clock is moving backwards. I never really gave any thought to the option of Bush winning. I don’t think he did win either. The poor and disinfranchised with 3 voting machines for an entire inner city, college students having to wait 10 hours to vote! No wonder the others don’t have a voice – they have to work, they don’t have transportation – or the single moms with kids don’t have a babysitter so they can stand in line for hours and hours to exercise their right to vote!
I don’t know about the rest of you but I am truly frightened about the future of this nation. Why don’t they see it – WHY!!
We need more than one day to vote – and we need a national holiday so people (ALL) people can get to the polls to voice their vote!
Posted by: Sandra on November 3, 2004 12:16 PM
the scariest thing is the exit polls show that the top issue that people based their vote on was – morallity. This is very scary. They don’t want sopcial programs but want the government to deicde what is eright and wrong for all of us.
This is a sad day for this country.
Posted by: steve on November 3, 2004 01:14 PM
The exit polls also showed that Kerry was stomping the piss out of Bush in FL and OH. How the hell can Kerry concede the election until all the votes are counted?
Isn’t that what Edwards said about 3 o’clock this morning?
What changed since then?
Well the votes aren’t all counted yet.
Something stinks.
Posted by: Neo on November 3, 2004 01:40 PM
Karl, the checklist at the end of your post is spot on. In my darker thoughts I can’t get away from the idea that we really will never know if all the paperless electronic voting machines were fixed along the lines Neo suggests but there is no evidence to support the claims and so no credibility with which to push them. Got to get on with life just as you suggest.
Posted by: BillSaysThis on November 3, 2004 02:14 PM
I am absolutely horrified and disgusted! It never occurred to me that the masses that were standing in line to vote, were coming out to vote for Bush. The simple reality is that there are more ?brain dead? people in this country then some may have thought. America is ?the land of the free?. The zombies walk free all over this country. Lock your doors and windows before they get your brain too. There are more of them, then us. I feel like I?ll have to become brain dead myself in order to survive the next four years. Bush winning simply because he?s ?likable? and for his ?morals? is a disgrace to this country. What does he stand for politically? Nothing! Our Founding Father?s are turning over in their graves. Who would?ve thought that one stupid, little man could tear down what this country was built on and stood for. Bush is the one who made the mess, how can he possibly clean it up? He can?t! That?s not his intention. He has and will continue to rape this country for his own ?personal? agenda and then, when his four years are up, toss it to the side and it won?t be his problem anymore. As far as voters go – in a true ?current? American fashion, people would rather bitch about being kept down instead of rising up. Those of you who didn?t vote- SHAME ON YOU!!
Posted by: Richelle on November 3, 2004 02:30 PM
Billsays – You wrote: Neo suggests but there is no evidence to support the claims and so no credibility with which to push them.
That was the entire point Bill. There is no way to prove the results are legit. I highly suggest you go read this:
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
Then go look at the list of 35 states that have these Diebold E-Voting machines. Then look at the election map. See anything funny? I do. And so do a lot of other people.
Richelle has a good point but is slightly off. Richelle, those people weren’t standing in 6 hour long lines to vote for Bush. They were standing in those lines to vote him out. The exit polls showed that.
Something is wrong here. And I fear that the damage is already done.
I also can’t believe Kerry can go down without swinging. I watched at 3am in the morning when Edwards came out and said, we’ll wait until all the votes are counted. Now today they quit saying that they don’t think enough votes are there in Ohio. Well that’s fine, but what about the other states that have these machines?
I know they want to be the bigger party and not try to divide us anymore than we already are. But it’s too late.
The hate is too deep now.
God help us all.
Posted by: Neo on November 3, 2004 02:47 PM
Hi Rajiv, you can change your registration, before the primaries, to influence a particular party. For example, changing your registration to Republican in the last primary to vote for John McCain over George Bush. Many have done so.
But I believe in a strong multiparty system. The Republicans (or any party for that matter) need a strong opposition party (or parties) to balance out the extremes that exist within it.
For me it simply comes down to communication. Different people communicate thru different means and, ultimately, people decide who to trust differently.
“The democrats need more Clintons.” Yep. It takes a Clinton who engenders a certain kind of trust across the board to win. I intend, for my part, to find a way to contribute to that. Whether it be Barrak Obama or Edwards, the candidate is out there that can bridge the divide.
Posted by: Karl on November 3, 2004 03:05 PM
My God, look what the rest of the world has to say about us.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3974095.stm
Those people out west and down south let down more people that just the the half that voted Kerry. When they were in that booth thinking about morals did they ever consider the rest of the world?
Bush says it takes strong morals and lots of bombs to get the hard work done.
Sickening…….. Truly sickening…..
Posted by: Neo on November 3, 2004 03:27 PM
Neo, I completely understand your point and that’s the reason for my second sentence. I’m well aware of the expert opposition to the devices as currently implemented and the statements by the Diebold CEO, but as of today, right now, there is no way to make a credible claim to dispute the reported tallies. Much as I’d like to find one.
Posted by: BillSaysThis on November 3, 2004 03:54 PM
Karl, thank you for your great words. I too, am proud of the work we did in Pennsylvania. I am proud of the people I met along the way. I said before the election that I wanted to wake up the morning after and say I did everything in my power to elect John Kerry. I did. You did. All of us who gave so much time, money and energy to MoveOn, ACT, PAVictory and other groups.
We?re all angry, we?re all upset and we?re all scared. We worked so hard because we felt our very rights and values were at stake. We don?t know what we have to do to change the course of the country we love.
I believe we have something here in Pennsylvania. We alone of the Big Three battleground states managed to win. We had help, of course. We found that we couldn?t do it alone. People came to Pennsylvania from New York, New Jersey and other Blue states. Yesterday I had volunteers who came from New Jersey to make a contribution. They wanted to be a part of what we were doing here. The question becomes ?how do we harness this energy and win??
At this point I don?t know. I need to take some time to reflect and decide. I think we need to stay together as a group and keep this thing going. We should not give up what we have put together because the final result wasn?t success. Let?s call ourselves Progressive Democrats or something else and mobilize for 2006 and beyond. I?ll get the bumper stickers, ?Don?t Blame Me, I?m From Pennsylvania?
Posted by: Charlie Miller on November 3, 2004 04:01 PM
Thanks Charlie 🙂 That bumper sticker idea is friggin’ terrific! Richelle is looking into how to get some made.
Posted by: Karl on November 3, 2004 04:20 PM
The credit line should read Pennsylvania Progressive Democrats for Change (or whatever line we decide on). As my favorite candidate said, “We’ll fight them in Cheltenham! We’ll fight them in Rhawnhurst! We’ll fight them in South Philly! We’ll fight them in Bensalem! YEAHHHH!”
Posted by: Charlie Miller on November 3, 2004 05:40 PM
howard dean had something. what happened?
was it just a temporary breath of life into the Dem party? or something else?
right now I feel lost. even as an independant, I at least connected with the Dems. Now, Kerry is gone, Edwards is gone, Daschle is gone. A party of whipped dogs are left. What is going to become of them?
Sorry, as much as I like Obama and Hillary and would vote for them, the country will never elect a Black or a Woman to the high office. This election should prove that. Let’s be honest with ourselves about that. Race, gender and religion still play a major role. If you are a White Protestant Male, then forget it. Now it seems you need to be a white protestant male with a gun in one hand and a bible in the other.
I wish Bill Clinton could come back.
Posted by: steve on November 3, 2004 07:35 PM
Charlie, maybe our group should be a part of Dean’s Democracy for America ( http://www.democracyforamerica.com/ )?
“We’ll fight them in Cheltenham! We’ll fight them in Rhawnhurst! We’ll fight them in South Philly! We’ll fight them in Bensalem! YEAHHHH!”
Damn straight!
Steve – don’t feel lost. Join a meetup, like Democracy for America, and sit down with some souls that can relate to you. The results can be pretty amazing.
None of us are alone. And together we can do some awesome things.
Posted by: Karl on November 3, 2004 08:38 PM
I started out with the Dean meetup last year. After Iowa I found the first Kerry meetup I could find. That happened to be the Northeast meetup where I met Karl.
I think I may consider returning to my roots with DFA. It makes sense to find an exisitng organization rather than reinvent the wheel. I’m also going to look at some other options and I’ll report back on my findings.
Posted by: Charlie Miller on November 4, 2004 06:55 AM
I’ll join you there 🙂 I’ve always been curious. In the meantime, I wouldn’t mind my site to be the temporary “web home” of our group. Lets try and encourage the others to join in the comments threads and postings.
Posted by: Karl on November 4, 2004 07:20 AM
I guess I just wanted to say, number one I am not a born again fundamental Christian, and I do not pass out phamphlets or knock on doors about the doom and gloom of the impending end times, but I do read my bible, and in this election, for me, it did not come down to the ecomony, or the war. It came down to voting what I thougt were things that God held dear, I voted for what I wanted my children to value and I voted for what I believe our founding Fathers wanted America to represent. God Cares about unborn children and the sancity of life and President Bush represented those beliefs as well, God wants us to have rulers who will rule in fear of him, in the bible God tells the Leaders of Nations to never forget him, we know Bush has received many criticisms for his faith and how he represents that in his leadership role, and God values the sacrament and santicity of marriage as it is written in the King James Bible, as does President Bush. Now these are just a few reaons why I choose Bush over Kerry, but I want to make, what I think is even a more valid point, I am imperfect, I know that, hippocritical and immoral. I don’t want to act like I am better than anyone else, I don’t want to say I am better because I am heterosexual, or because I am against abortion, but I belive with all my heart what is written in the Bible is the truth, and I don;t believe I am better. There is no wavering, there is no compromise, So I pray and I say God, I can’t act this way, I need you to change me, and I think that he does and sometimes I feel like he doesn’t, but I am still am unfinished piece.
To say I am braindead, or any one like me who voted for Bush is not only incorrect but insulting. Why would anyone who witnessed all the people standig in line this past Tuesday think that some may not be voting for Kerry?
The fact that Bush won the election made me feel at least on some levels that God has not given up on us yet,because there are more things I am afraid of than war. I believe I will stand before God one day and he will see through me like a mirror. I will be held accountable for all the things I have done and I will stand there in fear. That scares me and on Tuesday it showed just how many other Americans it scares. How many other Americans struggled every day to live a Godly, Moral Life, and exactly how important that was to them. Hollywood tried to win this election and America rejected it. I know we say seperation of church and state, but truthfully how can that ever happen? The basic rules we all follow, legally or morally come from the Bible? Neither Democrats nor Rebulicans had a hand there. There was no Agenda to push. Simple, Don’t Kill, don’t Steal, Honor your Mom and Dad, be good to eachother, stay true to your husband or wife, don’t covet your neighbors, remember the Lord your God to name a few. These are simple things we all say we believe, at least the majority of us do, Kerry and Bush supporters alike. Wake up!, These are from God and yet we think we are better somehow that we can pick and choose what we want to use and what we want to throw away. There are some things about Bush I don’t agree with, the war is confusing for me and a bitter toic for many. I’d be lying if I said I understood all the political retoric, but what I do know is that I have children who I love and I do want them to stay here instead of fighting and dying in some strange land, but I have faith that it is in Gods hands and that comforts the imperfect person that I am knowing someone who is bigger than me is in charge. It surprised me that Bush won, it did, I felt I was in the minority here, but just as record numbers of Democrats came out in support of Kerry that same held true for Bush. Amercia has spoken and the majority of us are more interested in the preservation of Morals for our children, than the preservation of our pocketbooks. I know this is the unpopular opinion here, and I would not have posted at all were it not for the Braindead comment made earlier. This was not an easy decision for me and it would have been very easy, especially here in Pennsylvania, to vote for Kerry who had ideals that were so much easier to follow and embrace, but I had to look past that and do what I felt was really the right thing for me, not the easiest. I think that is what we all did, and to call people names and cry foul doesn’t help fix what is broken in this country. We are a country of broken down, battered, broken hearted people and we need more. Maybe by coming together and directing our energies on ways to give that “more” to our fellow man we can find ways to heal ourselves. Concentrating on the hatred and bitterness will not help promote any growth or foster new ideals. I hope that the next four years will be better ones, but I think we need the help of all people in Amercia to do this and it won’t happen if so many of us are stuck in the despairing place.
Posted by: Angel on November 4, 2004 11:25 AM
I am not going to call you braindead Angel. But I am going to say that you shouldn’t judge a person’s faith by their words instead of their deeds and struggles.
I will let the Bible do my talking:
Gospel of St. Matthew (v, 3-10)
* Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
* Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4)
* Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
* Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
* Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
* Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
* Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
* Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)
Bush is not a peacemaker. Bush is proud, not meek of spirt, and has had a golden childhood where he has never suffered the consequences of his actions the way the rest of us have had to. Bush does not go to church. Kerry does.
Luke 6:37-42 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged.”
And please don’t throw Old Testament at me or I will continue to quote Jesus Himself.
I do not question your faith Angel. I don’t question Bush’s. Really I don’t. But you have made judgement that Kerry is less of a Christian than Bush.
Faith is a mystery and faith is a personal matter. When people start looking for qualities like this in their leaders – qualities that only God himself is the judge of – then we go astray big time. The people who follow Bin Laden think exactly the same way.
That’s my opinion. You have yours. Go in peace.
Posted by: Karl on November 4, 2004 12:48 PM
Is that supposed to make me forgive the brainwashed?
Morals? Please explain what is moral about dropping bombs on children that have nothing to do with this “War on Peace”?
What is morals when you spend 200+ Billion dollars (And still counting) to rebuild another country (One you just smoked back to the stone age) when that money could and should have been spent here helping ALL of us here at home.
Aren’t there people starving here?
Aren’t there people homeless here?
Aren’t rowhomes (quite literally) falling down ontop of their owners?
Spare me your rant. I’ve been quiet in not losing it on the Republican scum, but you just took the cake.
While you’re busy reading your bible, pull out a copy of our constitution; the one we had before ashcroft got done shreading, and wiping his ass with.
While freedom of faith is a cornerstone of our country, it does not mean that ALL of the decisions that occur in this country should be forced upon everyone because of your definition of what GOD wants.
I believe in God too, I believe in Christ. But I wasn’t thinking soley about that when I pulled the lever for Kerry.
All of this “I voted for morals,” talk is crap.
(((((Angel wrote: Concentrating on the hatred and bitterness will not help promote any growth or foster new ideals. ))))))))
This election wasn’t about church, it was about issues. It was about jobs, the economy, our security, healthcare, social security.
What we just witnessed on Tuesday will be 4 more years of strife for those hard working AMERICAN’s that are going to continue to get the shaft from a man who care nothing for you, or your God for that matter. If he did, he wouldn’t have sent our soldiers to die for an unjust war just so he could take their oil………
Also explain that to people who didn’t vote for him when their children get sent to fight the next series of wars.
The moral of the story?
There are no morals anymore. It’s a fantasy.
Posted by: Neo on November 4, 2004 01:00 PM
Its the people on the extreme left who encourage the existance of the extreme right and vice versa.
Try and have discussion without personal attacks.
Posted by: Karl on November 4, 2004 01:35 PM
You’re right Karl. I take back the line about “Republican Scum.” Other than that I think my post was dead on. I’m still a little sore over Tuesday.
What I would like to know is: Where were all the bible thumpers when they took down the 10 Commandments at that courthouse in the south?
And, when that Atheist in California initially won his case banning “God” from the pledge of allegance.
Where were they all?
They choose God when it serves their agenda’s and nothing more. To say that they based their vote off of “What would Jesus do,” is both insulting and blasphemy.
Does it not say in the 10 commandments: “Love thy neighbor?”
We sure are showing our neighbors in the world how much love we have for them when we drop bombs on their children and homes, and pollute their water and food with DU 181 (depleted uranium.) Whole lot of love there right?
Didn’t Jesus also say “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”?
Maybe God will forgive these people for the mistake they just made, but I won’t.
My 2 cents.
Posted by: Neo on November 4, 2004 01:51 PM
BTW – for *you* (and half the country including me) this election was not about Church. For a whole bunch of other people – it most certainly was.
Democrats need to learn how to reach out and let these folks know that Democratic stances on the issues are not counter to faith. Bill Clinton did that very effectively. Angel almost validates my viewpoint by her stand on why she voted the way she did, and its important not to tell her that she’s “wrong”, but to face up that values matter and that the Democratic viewpoint needs to be communicated better that it actually supports American values and are not counter to them. Now I’m not saying that Democrats should be “Bible thumpers”, but take a look at how Clinton communicated. It’s important. Different people have different criteria they use to base who they trust.
Posted by: Karl on November 4, 2004 01:54 PM
Unless Democrats find someone with some passion and guts to run in 2008 (And i’m not talking about Hilliary) I will switch to Independent.
The future of our political system needs to change for the better. We can’t keep taking the same pill every 4 years and hope we get lucky.
I think democrats were all guilty of that, and the HOPE that we had faded into the same misery.
I don’t believe we’ll ever see another turnout like the one on Tuesday until something changes.
Posted by: Neo on November 4, 2004 02:10 PM
Btw, I just heard on the radio John Edward’s wife has breast cancer.
Quite sad.
Posted by: Neo on November 4, 2004 02:20 PM
Here’s the article:
story.news.yahoo.com
WASHINGTON – Elizabeth Edwards, wife of former Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards, was diagnosed with breast cancer the day her husband and Sen. John Kerry conceded the presidential race.
Spokesman David Ginsberg said Mrs. Edwards, 55, discovered a lump in her right breast while on a campaign trip last week. Her family doctor told her Friday that it appeared to be cancerous and advised her to see a specialist when she could.
She put off the appointment until Wednesday so as not to miss campaign time.
The Edwards family went straight to Massachusetts General Hospital from Boston’s Faneuil Hall after Kerry and Edwards conceded on Wednesday.
Mrs. Edwards had a needle biopsy performed at the hospital, where Dr. Barbara Smith confirmed the cancer, Ginsberg said.
Posted by: Neo on November 4, 2004 02:22 PM
Hello,
Thank you for you responses to my reply. I don’t know if you realize, but I do take everything you say into consideration and I wanted this forum or I would not have posted, I did expect responses, and I am actually quite surprised it was less attacking than I thought it could have been, Karl, thanks for the moderation.
I didn’t mean to imply any one was less of a christian than any other, and I certainly was not trying to attack or Judge because I do understand that is not my right. I think we all have room for improvement in our Christianinty, it speaks to the fact that we are all imperfect beings. It is just hard to express your beliefs to others who don’t have the same without it seeming like you are attacking. I don’t think going to church has anything to do with moral character, Bush’s or Kerry’s. I miss many Sundays, but I it does not mean I don’t believe with all my heart that the Bible is my guide, old and new testament alike. You can quote Jesus, there are many I am still learning and I love to hear them, but I don’t think he discounted his Father’s words in the Old Testament because he wanted the New Testament to sound more approachable. I think they they corelate a great plan for us together. The reasons I quoted before were pretty paramount to me as a Christian and the others were not as, it does not in any way mean the others didn’t matter. I think it is pretty impossible to pick a candidate that thinks and reprsents your beliefs exactly and that is why you pick the ones that weigh the heaviest on your heart. I just wanted to add as well if this is a Republican and Democratic Race, maybe the Democratic ticket did miss the Republican concern by underestimating how much the moral ticket was going to impact the vote. If there was something else to it, I certainly missed it and obviously I was not alone. The election of Kerry into the Whitehouse was very threatening to me, as it may have been to others. Maybe there was something there that we didn’t hear that could have been made clearer. The war was a big issue, but obviously he others were so much bigger and Just as I can put my views out for others to hear, I welcome those views that I may have missed, but I will weigh them against the Bible and what I believe God wants. I am not a straght republican voter, I voted for Bill Clinton because, but this campaign was so hateful and so meanspirited on both sides it was hard at the end to even hear anything that anyone was trying to say. I think there is still much for us all to learn from eachother, but with closed ears it just won’t happen.(Meaning closed ears in general, not anyones’ ears here specifically)
Also, the power of intercessory prayer is amazing, so I urge all who read this to pray on behalf of Mrs. Edwards that God pull her through this according to his will and that she be healed completely.
Thanks again, and if I can explain anything any better I would certainly try to.
Posted by: Angel on November 4, 2004 03:09 PM
Thanks Angel. I really appreciate you stopping by to share your view and I know there are many things you’ve said that all of us here can relate with. There are just so many communication barriers that need to be broken down and its a shame that some are so adament about putting up more. Discussion like this is important.
Neo, thanks for sharing the news about Mrs. Edwards. I’m going to pray for her and her family too.
Posted by: Karl on November 4, 2004 03:24 PM
I cast my vote Tuesday with the expectation that Kerry would be a winner. I voted in Indiana, and while I knew very well the state’s electors would go for Bush, I wanted to vote for the state and local offices. Sadly, everyone I voted for except Evan Bayh lost. (If Bayh can carry red-state Indiana by a landslide, he may be our best hope in 2008.) I was deeply depressed on Nov. 3. I consider myself a Christian, but I can’t bring myself to forgive Bush and his cronies–especially in light of reports that the exit polls were right, and the vote counters in Ohio, Florida, and New Mexico threw the election to Bush.
Posted by: Steve Wylder on November 5, 2004 10:04 AM